Mulling over 'Apologetic Method'

I know this is neither the best response nor the most gracious one I've offered. But it has reaffirmed me of what I've read in Van Til, how everyone comes with their own presuppositions in interpreting a similar set of data. That was why I started by questioning my fren on how he arrived at the conclusion that this 'joy' is better than that 'joy' which he later replied that his authority came from what he saw. And I think it is here that overzealous Van Tillian must concede that classical arguments come in most handy to prove the authority wrong.

Fren

a bunch of undergraduates trying to find meanings and truth...how pathethic! Get some lives, dear students~ DATE instead of DEBATE.. hahahaha

DD

Alas, another one who chose to settle for the lesser things in life.

'Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.' CS Lewis

So, who has got no life dude?

Fren

Cs lewis can said that because he first assumed there is such thing as infinite joy. If infinite joy is real, or if the sea is real, the child will stop playing with the mud, and go to the sea, but the offer was never proven to be real. It is just a "woo" by someone who came out with that idea. I dont know for what, but the point is no one came back from the sea bringing pictures or video tapes of the holiday trip to said truthfully that the sea is a real thing. i believed lewis himself was still in the dream of the sea, cos he was a dreamer.

i could only say this; carry on with your dreams, fren, while bill gates is commenting on the foreign policies.

DD

Well dude, I was told about infinite joy from the Bible and through the testimony of believers throughout the history of mankind, just as how you are informed of the 'joy' of gaining worldly riches through Bill Gates and the like. So what makes Mr.Bill a better authority than the Bible? If you've read CS Lewis works, I'm sure you wouldn't have ended up with the conclusion that you did - that he cooked up a dream about infinite joy. Being an introspective person, he realized that his sense of morality must have pointed to a Moral Standard who is God, the source of our infinite joy. So, I'd rather put him on the ranks with ppl like Martin Luther King Jr who also had a dream; for a more equitable society for the blacks. Must he SEE an equitable society to envision one? We can't possibly apply the same standard of proof for something as invisible as joy or equity with your worldly green notes.

You see fren, both of us are fundamentally the same. We long for joy, satisfaction, and pleasure. The difference is that you've settled for Bill Gates and I've not. The joy of money is fleeting and temporal and ultimately, not satisfying enough...but it points me to the fact that there's more to joy than just this. So dude... maybe you'll want to consider dreaming along? :)

Fren

hmm.. true chris,just that i saw the "joy" in the world more than the infinite "joy" that you mentioned. I believe in what i see and i dont dream. Martin dreamt of freeing ppl and he did it, that deserves an applause, but the dream that you guys are having here is of different kind from his. He brought freedom to the people so that the people can have joy. But you guys dream and bring joy not more than a fake hope, while martin brought true joy to the people where they can feel it, experienced it, the world saw it and recognised it. Therefore its well accepted while your so called "joy" might be experienced by you and those like you only, the world cant see it, the world doesnt recognise it.

DD

My point was...Martin Luther fought for a joy that he has yet to see then...similarly, not seeing something in its totality in the process of pursuing it does not disqualify the existence of the object pursued.

If it's what you see and what you feel that determines what's the true and infinite joy, then everyone has his own standards of what this joy is, which might include joy of torturing, joy of conquering, etc that are despicable to our conscience and common sense. What makes your joy better than theirs??? They SEE it as much as you do.

So fren, all these point us to the fact that there is a point of reference even for our joy...

Btw, being a Christian doesn't mean that we are against riches and wealth. The difference perhaps is that we are taught to derive our joy from sharing, giving charity, giving thanks for His provision, not to indulge in gluttony, using our riches and wealth responsibly all to God's glory. We do not derive pleasure and joy by just getting rich or famous.

So we are not against wealth but we learn to obey God in all circumstances, circumstances which may even require us to give away wealth if He so calls. Because we believe that ultimately, God has set before us a greater joy to be attained, that which neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.